Bullying, Mobbing and Hazing in the workplace

That was very interesting stuff, and led to just a little bit of journalling. Thanks.
Sometimes handwashing is good for nurses, and sometimes it really isn't.

was your response to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QGgoHIYpA4

posted on another thread which is fairly representative of the thought processes and the type of response that abusers routinely come up with.

Well you've pulled all the stuff you've written about. While when asked directly you didn't answer my orignal question which was:

but went into this little ditty...

was your response to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QGgoHIYpA4

posted on another thread which is fairly representative of the thought processes and the type of response that abusers routinely come up with.

You should go chat Jane.

JaneQ what. The hell? Are. You talking about?!

I profer a plausible, non-histrionic and reasonable explanation for the patient's predicament? An interpretation. Quick burn me at the stake!

I just wish you would all write with a little more clarity. All of you are making me feel stupid or crazy because I can't follow your conversation, which is most likely not my fault!!!
p.s. getting the quotes right really helps in this regard.

LOL . . . don't feel bad, Daenerys . . . I'm out in left field, too!

I think I see it with 20/20. O.K. - I'm not that brilliant, but here's my understanding:
I think that JaneQ thinks that POOO is defending this doctor for his own personal reasons, because Jane has empathy for the patient and doesn't think that POOO does.

I understand what POOO is saying though, but it doesn't negate the fact that the doctor's report appears to be irresponsible and fraudulent.

I think that POOO is saying that by giving an opinion that the patient is "healed", he would have better opportunities at work. The doctor would know that others would disagree with this, but his opinion would be an outliar and could help with job opportunities.

I could be all mixed up though. My vision is a little bit distorted.

You're a bit mixed up but it isn't your vission that's distorted, its WINDUPOOO that's been perpetrating the distortions, intentionally so. WINDUPOOO is what WINDUPOOO claims to be railing against.

Like I said JaneyQ - I'm really not that brilliant.

Well, even if you're pretty sharp, and Daenerys is, WINDUPOOO's intent was to divert via confusion and she succeeded. Its just that I've got quite a bit of experience with persons of her ilk so as to be able to catch on to what they're up to quicker than most people. People like WINDUPOOO rely on most people not being able to catch on let alone quickly in order to be able to get away with doing what they do to others.

So - then - I see - WINUPOOO is a very clever abuser?
An authority figure, with a very large carrot securely embedded?
Who feels that "fraud" can be justified, if it serves a purpose?
If that purpose is to his/her personal benefit?
Am I getting hot?

Bonfire hot!

====

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcIP5w4H6Dw

I can't believe how off the mark you are Wisher. Yes maybe you have my methods down pat but that's only half the story. Nothing wrong with gestaltism or a bit of psychoanalysis? I do like ruffling feathers yes, but, I would not see it as a form of abuse. Particularly where a person is fixated on their trauma and may just need a corrective emotional experience or insight (normally gained through counselling).

JaneQ - I always take a multidisciplinary approach to problems as is my education - any problem and therefore my thinking (and 'vision') is outside the circle. That means my views will not usually follow mainstream. Sometimes the approach might explain things that are not mainstream. This is particularly true when someone appears to be making an emotionally clouded posting or there is unusual behaviour reported.

EVERYONE thinks they are benevolent and good - from Dr Ayad to which you refer or Dr Lecter. Yes? Unless you take a semi-'distorted' view point as you call it; you're not gonna understand the mind of a 'good', 'abuser', or why they do what they do. You must understand that this Dr Ayad character; is doing the right thing according *TO HIS PERCEPTION/EGO*. FBI profilers do this kind of outside the box thinking all the time but I wouldn't say they themselves are 'abusers' (unless they go 'native' as in the book).

The purpose of this thread is to discuss a particular kind of insidious abuse that occurs inside the workplace. One that should make the DSMV. Until it does make the DSMV or is recognised then threads like this serve to educate people and help them to cope.

Docs can be abusive but usually it is too OTHER docs or nurses. Rarely to a patient. If a patient is mistreated I think this is incompetance or negligence rather than 'abuse' per se.

Close.

This, Danza Ritual del Fuego (the Ritual Fire Dance) is a little more like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftd8tIdiYq4

I'm not very bright so when it comes to a doctor/patient relationship, how would you define mistreatment as opposed to abuse? Could you give me an example of each?

But WindUp...It's hard to discuss this particular kind of abuse when you have thrown out a subject or scenario which nobody can 'connect' to without some sort of specific examples or personal anecdotes. I'm trying to understand *why* you brought the subject up...is it just because you find it interesting, or is it because of personal experience?
You've regurgitated some information from websites and quoted required reading, but I still don't understand the essence of what you are trying to say.
Just trying to understand...

Tell me what you think of the treatment method for AE's son, and then I'll know you a bit better.

AE wrote:
What bothers me, and always will, is his speciality. He's a "Adolescent Forensic Psychiatrist." He works with troubled youths who have gotten in trouble with the law.
I have researched and have reason to be disturbed by one case where he was the "expert witness" in a court case. It involved a 15 year old boy who accidently shot his friend in the eye with a pellet gun, which caused his friend to lose his eyesight. From all indications, this boy was remorseful for his actions and had even taken a toxic mix of antidepressants and alcohol after this incident, because of what he had done. For 1.5 years from the time of the incident to the time of trial, the boy suffered with suicidal ideation. Dr. Keriem assessed this youth and told the court that the boy was using suicide as a tool for manipulating the court. Because of his testimony, the Crown was seeking that the boy be incarcerated. Here is the court case: http://www2.albertacourts.ab.ca/jdb/2003-/pc/criminal/2005/2005abpc0180.pdf In my mind, and having three boys, this was a case of a youth who didn't see the pellet gun as a weapon nor the damage it could inflict. Although the youth's actions were careless and unmindful of any dangers, I certainly don't see that he had intent to harm. I know my boys could never understand that there was danger in their bb guns, even though we were always careful to stress the fact and were restrictive in their use. But if you were to ask them, a bb just inflicted a bit of a sting and couldn't hurt anyone.

This case bothers me because he treated my son, for which I apologized to my son since then for having taken him to Dr. Keriem. I don't want to go into detail, other than to say that he took away my parental rights and incarcerated my son in the psychiatric ward for two weeks. In his own words, this was an unorthodox way of dealing with my son and he hoped his daughter never found out because she would be greatly upset with him. He advised that he "pushed" all of my son's "buttons" to get an assessment of him. At the time, he had convinced me and my husband that this was the best way to deal with my son. Today, I realize the psychological damage this caused my son and I KNOW that if he ever has any emotional problems in the future, he will NEVER seek help because of this experience.

Having said this, and knowing what Dr. Keriem's speciality is, his treatment plans for both me and my son, it really makes me nervous that he is working with troubled youths.

So - would you like to comment on this POOO?

Bullying by Doctors & Dentists

After the dentist looked in my mouth and at X-rays, I calmly and politely asked him normal dental questions but he refused to answer questions about dental causes, prevention, treatment options, risks and consequences. In fact he inexplicably turned his back on me, stormed out, then started yelling "I'm not your dentist!" Then he walked back in and tried to physically intimidate me by leaning into me, boring his eyes into me, and flaring his nostrils while yelling "OK.OK.OK.OK" with extreme hostility, until I finally left. I was then charged hundreds of dollars.

I can't go over his head since dental assistants and billing managers, etc. report to the dentist. How to deal with this? Is there any dental patient bill of rights? Does the ADA have any statements on dentist obligations to a patient (I searched but could not find)?

In reply to Crystal_Artiste. In law the definitions are somewhat different.

Outside law - the differences are usually in the state of mind of the doctor and the consequences for the patient. If the doctor "intends" harm then it is abuse. If the doctor has a personality disorder and does not intend harm then it is still abuse.

If the doctor makes a mistake (everyone makes em) that a normal doc would not make ~ causing harm ~ it may be negligence or incompetance (same diff). If the doctor takes a stupid risk - then it's recklessness and he's still a nob-jockey.

If the doctor wants to do something risky or stupid he must tell the patient first and let the patient decide what to do.

Basic definitions.

Hi Haha,welcome, I'm sorry to hear what you went though.I hope you found a good dentist now. Best wishes.

Sounds like unprofessional conduct. Unfortunately unless you have strong evidence I wouldn't do anything - except to find a new dentist. The American Dental Association or equivalent should have a code of practice somewhere. Get hold of it and write a complaint if you need too. Either way - like complaining to a chef about your meal - would you really want to go back to this dentist.

Maybe he was right afterall or just voicing a self-fullfiling prophecy? When he said "I'm NOT YOUR DENTIST"!

>>Tell me what you think of the treatment method for AE's son, and then I'll know you a bit better.

I read the judgement. Note para 18 in the judgement of what the child actually said. Note again the repetition of this belief in the child behaviour (cries for help). The diagnosis seems sound. Although ODD is an axis II disorder last time I checked. Psychotic depression. The Court didn't pay much notice to the docs assessment anyways and the child was not incarcerated.

In relation to AE - there's really not much to say because there's not a heap of info. Putting her son in a forensic ward? Yes that's kinda strange? For two weeks only? Two week - might suggest it was a drug induced reaction or adverse drug event. Was the son violent or in the middle of some kind of episode? This seems unlikely. Seems like her son will have PTSD for a while yet.

Devils advocate - her son may see doctors again and, probably unconsciously try to get himself FA#$(*()ed up as a means of re-living the trauma B3/internalising the guilt (i.e. stockholm syndrome), incorporation of the trauma into self (internalising an identity) or dissociate the self as a defence mechanism (perhaps with drugs/alcohol as a means of 'numbing the pain'). Bad defence mechanisms the lot of em...

I would not take a child to a forensic psychiatrist unless he has already been arrested. I think that AE should find him a competant and expert traumatologist before other illnesses take over and obscure the real issue. Drugs and tablets do nothing for traumata in the long term.

So much for a thread on mobbing and abuse. Is this story abuse? Maybe? You would need to know more about the personal history of this doctor and whether he's done this kind of thing before.

I agree that you wouldn't see it as a form of abuse. However, it is a very useful tool for you.

"Tool?" I prefer the term "methodology" - has fewer negative connotations to it. Less "instrumental" as the criminologists would say.

Would you pose the same critique of Dr House? A brashness for reality. An almost autistic ability to push buttons and press the right ones? To the point and almost always correct?

Is he an "abuser"?

I know which doc I'd rather have... and do have...

I got no problem with being misunderstood. Now then if you don't mind I have to finish this fine Chardonnay...

Plausable? Not even close. Reasonable explantion? Ridiculous conclusions on your part. Your scenario doesn't even rate interpretation, not in light of the facts. Now, unless you yourself are delusional you knew all of that before you even lashed out with your "JaneQ what. The hell? Are. You talking about?!"

Like I said before, you were already busted for being totally full of crap and you should have quit then. Since you didn't, it begs and answers (vis-a-vis this and all your other comments on this thread) the question I originally asked regarding weather you were the "abuser".

Feign victimhood all you want but know this: people can and do see through your facade.

Windup, "Misunderstood"? Don't flatter yourself, though I know how difficult that will be for you. I understand you only too well. I'm not going to play with you because (and I mean this sincerely) I believe that you have some very serious challenges. Good luck.

My sympathies don't go out to WINDU but go out to any who's forced to deal with WINDU's sadistic/mindf^ck game playing.

Ok...well honestly ladies, I don't see how you're giving him any opportunity to explain himself about *whatever* (I'm still not very clear with that) because the only logical reaction that your words are going to bring forth is one of defense. I would just like to see more culpability before I jump on the skewering bandwagon.

Goodness. Where to begin with this ... "mobbing" behaviour? Ironic that these posts demonstrate the subject of this thread.

JaneQ - I've answered your question. You should know the answer. If you need help google "symbolic interactionism" or click on this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_interactionism . You say I've been 'caught out'. I'm sorry I don't follow your rationale? Caught out how exactly? Did I manage to 'shrink' something? Oh - you mean Donb? No I just don't agree that the more rational explanation is that there's an evil, horned and calous monster in the form of Dr Ayad. Now to believe that - is crazy! I would hope for your sake it's just a bit of transferance on your part (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference).

JaneQ - Successful 'therapies' ALL incorporate giving the patient back some CONTROL. *ALL* of them. People who are ILL will often feel out of control and helpless. Sometimes they will start to blame other people or situations for thier life and their problems. They tend to get stuck in this thought cycle... and it becomes automatic... (a 'complex' AKA 'personality disorder'). If one gets counselling it might take YEARS to trust anyone again - YEARS!!! At the point of rapport ~ a therapist will likely confront the patient directly or indirectly on their maladaptive copying styles or cognitions. Some experts do it differently noticing that a slowly-slowly approach doesn't work for some people. For those people - these experts do the opposite and just blindly confront and argue with their patients. If selected carefully this approach WORKS. For that reason alone I'm not going to alter my style. It is my personal hypothesis that when dealing with people in that catagory countertransferance becomes, over time, absent.

Mairen - don't worry I can handle it but thank you for your concerns.

Daenerys - I'm not trying to explain anything per se? Other academics have already done work on this phenomenon. I find their research explanation sufficient. I was (past tense) trying to raise awareness on this post of workplace abuse and how people can respond, cope or conquer it. Not other kinds of abuse?! Although I conceed that for some the literature does state they seem to provoke the abuse so it might be an individual-level explanation for coping, responding or conquering the abusive work dynamics.

Is there any instance when 'was' is NOT past tense?
I realize you're not trying to explain anything (???) which might be the reason why you sound so confused.

Fine. You got me on a tautology. Happy now?

Sigh.