RCMP, TASER and Hugh G. Calkins, MD

http://adventuresincardiology.com/front-2/taser-international-disputes-media-link-to-heart-damage/

Another Taser Death reported in The New York Times: "Mr. Dziekanski was the 18th person to die since July 2003 after being hit by a Taser in Canada... in the United States, 280 people have died after being struck by police Tasers since 2001. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/world/americas/16canada.html?ref=todayspaper

"Dr. Hugh Calkins, Professor of Medicine and Director of the Arrhythmia Service at Johns Hopkins Hospital, concluded, 'I have had an opportunity to review the studies and the results of the studies confirm the general safety of the TASER devices, and I personally believe this technology is saving lives everyday.'" - Class Action Complaint for Securities Fraud.

Here's a link to the story

Here's a link to the story from the Edmonton Sun News........therein is a hyperlink to the actual video. It's sad because the Immigrant is clearly confused and doesn't speak English.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/11/14/4655893.html

Pam

Hi Pam,I think the people

Hi Pam,I think the people using the tasers should be tasered. Over and over and over and over until there is no overs left. Shocked

I certainly hope he has a

I certainly hope he has a good answer for God,when he is asked why. Or maybe I don't. Puzzled

So very sad,it is!!

So very sad,it is!! Sad

Bagnall died as Vancouver

Bagnall died as Vancouver city police tried to remove him from a low-rent downtown hotel. A pathologist concluded he died of a cocaine-induced heart attack during the scuffle.

The cause of Dziekanski’s death still has not been determined but an autopsy found no drugs or alcohol in his system.
=====================================
I would like a Canadian to enlighten me about something. Do Canadian police officers carry guns?

This is a strange case. In the first paragraph a pathologist says the man died of a cocaine-induced heart attack; in the second paragraph, the forensic pathologist says the tox screen came back negative for drugs and alcohol. Who did the first pathologist work for, the police? How does this stuff work in Canada?

Levi, they are 2 different

Levi, they are 2 different 'Roberts'. One's last name is Debreweski, the other Bagnell. The mother of Robert Bagnell was commenting on the taping of Rober Debreweski's taser death.

I hope that's a little more clear.

Yes, RCMP and police officers both carry guns.

Heartthrob: This incident

Heartthrob: This incident makes me ashamed to be Canadian. My heart goes out to the man's mom.

Pam,what will it take to

Pam,what will it take to have tasers outlawed?? I still want to know,did he have it tested on himself first!! Can someone please tell me if he did or not?? I assume HE DID NOT!!

Canadian police officers do

Canadian police officers do carry guns.

In stark contrast to the US, the right for citizen’s to bear arms, plays no role in the Canadian Charter. The average citizen in Canada is prohibited by Canada’s Criminal Code from carrying weapons, including a gun (exceptions for hunting rifles), Tasers, pepper spray, brass knuckles, crossbows, nunchakas, certain knives etc.

I found that to be utopia when I arrived in Canada Smiling , instead of seeing stabs and gunshots *daily* in ER as I was previously accustomed to, in 7 years I’ve seen 4 gunshots in our relatively small rural ER (2 of them hunting accidents, and the other 2 attempted suicides by shotgun). Of course, this may not be typical for a place like Toronto Evil .

A word of caution about the critique of Tasers in general, and the debate / criticism of their use by police officers (and I’m speaking from the perspective of an ex military officer, and an ER doc who on occasion has to face violent individuals) : be wary to judge unless you’ve stood in those same shoes, in the same circumstances.

Police officers are trained in a “escalating continuum” in terms of their decision regarding the best strategy (including lethal force) to subdue or apprehend someone, balanced against the risks to that person / bystanders / and yes, themselves.

Bottom line is that objectively, a Taser represents less *relative* lethal risk to the individual than a gun : in spite of the mounting evidence that Tasers are *not* necessarily “safe”, I would still rather be pepper sprayed / punched / clubbed / Tasered / shot, in that order.

The problem is thus not necessarily the *taser* itself, but a valid appreciation and application of where in the escalating continuum of force it should be used, i.e. as a last resort before a gun.

Watching the Dziekanski video, there is no doubt in my mind that there was a tragic error of judgement in the decision to escalate directly to a Taser, i.e. the continuum of force concept was hopelessly incorrect.

That, however, is easy for me to say : every situation is unique, and the power of hindsight is 20/20 – we’ll have to wait and see what the RCMP officers have to say at the investigation, and await an objective assessment / judgement of their motivations.

There is talk of introducing Tasers for use in certain US ERs for the protection of staff : now *there’s* a frightening thought Shocked .

Not only is the person that

Not only is the person that invented tasers are responsible for 280 deaths,but the persons,that caused the deaths by tasers are killers!! I bet God not to happy about that!! Hello.. Maybe welcome to hell?? Only God knows. Thats just my opinion. I don't think God takes to lightly to murderers.

Oh, Dear Spuddy,there are

Oh, Dear Spuddy,there are more incidents in the US of Taser related death and/or abuse than there are in Canada, so I wouldn't be ashamed. Just "search" this site for Taser videos.

Pam

Levi: "Bagnall died as

Levi:

"Bagnall died as Vancouver city police tried to remove him from a low-rent downtown hotel. A pathologist concluded he died of a cocaine-induced heart attack during the scuffle."

****************I think that this is a problem. Many people who die after being shot with a taser are testing positive for drugs.....cocaine, pcp etc..,and certainly they were acting out before being Tasered, but for the coroners, in all cases which tested positive for drugs, to say that they had a "coocaine induced heart attack", Weeelllll,
how can one possibly tell that a heart attack was "cocaine induced" or "Taser induced".
I have never seen them call those MIs absent drugs, "taser induced". They just won't comment at all.

Pam

"The problem is thus not

"The problem is thus not necessarily the *taser* itself, but a valid appreciation and application of where in the escalating continuum of force it should be used, i.e. as a last resort before a gun."

***********I don't really agree with that Random. Police officers have been taught that taser guns, while certainly producing SOME pain, and immobilizing a violent person, will not cause death or other permanent injury, and so the police aren't all that reluctant to use them in any questionable situation. So, it seems to me that the police have been lulled into a false sense of safety in it's use.

Taser International set up an "independent" advisory board to approve the use of Taser guns by the police. Electrophysiologists Hugh Calkins of Johns Hopkins (Baltimore) and Richard Luceri or Jackson Memorial (Miami) advised that Taser guns were safe for use by the police, ie; would not cause cardiac deaths. These guys were no doubt hansomly compensated for this approval by Taser International:~)

Msdoodle wrote:Not only is

Msdoodle wrote:

Not only is the person that invented tasers are responsible for 280 deaths,but the persons,that caused the deaths by tasers are killers!! I bet God not to happy about that!! Hello.. Maybe welcome to hell?? Only God knows. Thats just my opinion. I don't think God takes to lightly to murderers.

Whoa, Dood, your emotions are getting in the way of rational objectivity.

The person that invented guns is responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.

Tasers are generally used by police officers, and police officers in general are not killers. I doubt your God classifies them as murderers when in the course of their duty they have had to take a life, *if* they were "correct" and no other alternative existed.

Yes, based on the evidence of accumulating statistics, Tasers are *dangerous*, and should *not* be used lightly / as a second last resort.

Guns are infinitely more lethal than tasers.

Would you like to see all police officers unarmed, as in the UK ?

heartthrob wrote:"Police

heartthrob wrote:

"Police officers have been taught that taser guns, while certainly producing SOME pain, and immobilizing a violent person, will not cause death or other permanent injury, and so the police aren't all that reluctant to use them in any questionable situation. So, it seems to me that the police have been lulled into a false sense of safety in it's use.

Agree fully : therein lies the nub of the problem, and that's what needs to be addressed.

When I say it's not the taser as such that is the problem, you misunderstand : it's the same as the analogy that guns don't kill people, people kill people. It's also an analogy I don't buy - gun ownership by individuals imho should be abolished.

Just because they have

Just because they have tasers,don't mean they can kill people with them,and get away with it. There is justice in this world,regardless if others believe it or not. One CAN NOT expect to get away with murder,it just wont happen.Now if it was an accident,God will know that. Only God knows whats in a persons heart. I don't want to see anyone killed,I don't believe God does either.

Since the subject here is

Since the subject here is really whether Tasers are safe or not, some of these are perhaps not relative, but I have to put them back up,.........they've all been here before.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si3y9gVxJtE

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/04/video_stun_gun_.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3CdNgoC0cE

http://www.campaignagainstthetaser.com/

Now they will be better,and

Now they will be better,and improved..yea right. http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/15/tasers-electrifying-new-xrep-shotgun-fired-projectile/ I think it shocks the heart,and makes it stop ticking.. Sad. Very sad. Sad http://www.local6.com/news/14147512/detail.html

Hi Doodle, I hadn't seen

Hi Doodle,

I hadn't seen this one "Wheelchair-Bound Woman Dies After Being Shocked With Taser 10 Times". Article says she was tasered for a total of 165 seconds. OMG, I hope they get sued, as well as the docs who approved taser use for the police department.

What do you think Random? Were the police feeling threatened by the pschizophrenic woman in the wheelchair?

I, for one would love, love,

I, for one would love, love, love to know whether Hugh Calkins and Richard Luceri own stock in Taser International. Anyone know how?????

Pam Walter
Deale, Maryland

There were 4 cops and at

There were 4 cops and at least 2 security people to subdue, albeit a very tired Mr. Dziekanski with a stapler as a weapon. 2 short items in our Vancouver paper yesterday...Transit cops have been armed with Taser guns since July. Transit cops of all people for heavens sakes. Get Tasered if you don't pay your fare?? VPD (Vancouver Police Department)finance staff are struggling to cut $2.3 million from next year's budget which means abandoning plans to hire 52 to 65 new officers. Taser guns are cheaper than officers. So my guess is instead of two cops a car will be a cop and a Taser gun. Be afraid!! In the video a cop had his knee on Mr. Dziekanski's neck with his full weight. I would think that could kill one without the Taser gun. My personal opinion is that they should be ashamed. The RCMP have a lot to answer for, this isn't the first questionable incident of late. But,here cops police themselves so don't expect much but excuses like "we were afraid for our lives" Garbage!!!! There, I ranted!!!!! I feel better.

Saphire wrote:There were 4

Saphire wrote:

There were 4 cops and at least 2 security people to subdue, albeit a very tired Mr. Dziekanski with a stapler as a weapon

Jmho, but the (? untrained) lady at the beginning of the clip did a much better job at attempting to calm / talk-down this individual.

I agree 100% RT, what we

I agree 100% RT, what we need are cops with brains (like women) not brawn..but the dipsticks didn't even use their brawn, cowards!!! Evil

heartthrob wrote:What do you

heartthrob wrote:

What do you think Random? Were the police feeling threatened by the pschizophrenic woman in the wheelchair?

No debate Pam, an unarmed wheelchair bound individual can by no stretch of the imagination meet the criteria for application of potentially lethal force.

As we've both agreed, the perception that Tasers do not have the potential to be lethal, is the problem.

Also keep an open mind : the secret is in an appropriate strategy matched with the circumstances, but it becomes more complicated in that pepper spray, tear gas, brute physical force, clubbing etc etc can also be lethal under the right circumstances. In a perfect world, it would never be necessary to use force of some sort, and verbal de-escalation of a situation would always work.

Never under-estimate the physical strength of someone powered by rage / fear / psychosis / emotion : I've witnessed 6 adults being required to physically restrain one individual, with difficulty, and with significant injuries to themselves.

In an ER, if I had a Taser or a gun, would I hesitate to use it on a acutely psychotic burly Canadian woodsman, high on PCP, barging down on me with an axe raised ? - probably not. Would I rather Taser him than use a gun ? - probably. Moot question, as I don't have access to a Taser or gun, and I prefer it that way. I'd become a statistic, as our hospital "security" consists of a petite housekeeper who doubles as "security" Evil .

Difficult questions. In a former life on a different continent, I put a chest tube in for a stabbing victim, only to watch on helplessly as the perpetrators invaded our ER and finished him off by shooting him in the head. Would I have used a weapon : who knows ?

spuddywuddy wrote: This

spuddywuddy wrote:

This incident makes me ashamed to be Canadian. My heart goes out to the man's mom.

Spuddy,you shouldn't be ashamed.I still think Canada is a beautiful place,with beautiful people.And I would still love to live there. But as with every where,there is bad and good.Just because bad things happen,I wont lower my views about it. Have a great night Spuddy. Smiling Huge hugs.

RandomThoughts

RandomThoughts wrote:

Difficult questions. In a former life on a different continent, I put a chest tube in for a stabbing victim, only to watch on helplessly as the perpetrators invaded our ER and finished him off by shooting him in the head. Would I have used a weapon : who knows ?

Wow. You must feel somewhat under-challenged at present? Jawdropping!

Earlier today, CBC radio one had a clip about this. I can't remember everything verbatim, but one police force (I *think* it was in NS)had every police officer tasered. According to the 'captain'(?), he wanted every member of the force to know what it felt like before doing it to someone else. Of course, the absolute presumption now, is that the taser is perfectly safe to use (as all police officers did it and bounced back 10 seconds later) on healthy individuals. So, my question would be, how do they determine a 'healthy' individual? There is no way for them to know anyone's health background before they decide to taser.

There is no all encompassing

There is no all encompassing answer to the use of tasers. Mr. Dziekanski's death was a tragedy, and there'll be an RCMP investigation. It may very well lead to a Royal Commission, that Canadian investigational catch all, that would discuss ad nauseum. every aspect of tasers and their use. My father was a police chief, my two brothers-in-law are retired Toronto police officers, and my son (I hope) will join the RCMP instead of being a fireman; and I can state from a position of some knowledge, that I infinitely prefer our police officers to have tasers than to not have tasers. I must agree with Random's comments.

Daenerys wrote: You must

Daenerys wrote:

You must feel somewhat under-challenged at present?

Nope, not at all, more than happy to do without those types of challenges, that's why I chose to emigrate Smiling .

I've lived and worked in 5 different countries, and here's a general observation to stir the pot a bit : the average Canadian has no clue how truly fortunate they are in many ways Evil

That being said, the inefficiencies and disparities of the rural Canadian health care system have greyed my hair much more rapidly than crime and violence did Eye-wink

Exchanged one set of challenges for another.

Pam,maybe they will outlaw

Pam,maybe they will outlaw them here,after thousands are killed from them. Who knows?? Its sad indeed.

Have any of you heard of,

Have any of you heard of, 'excited delirium?' This condition doesn't appear in medical or psychiatric journals. It is a condition that, so far, only affects persons in police custody. Some refer to it as an adrenalin peak that happens after the offender has been surrounded by police or handcuffed. Some say that the person can go into the 'flight or fight response. This response would signal to a police officer that something has to be done to stop the individual. In some cases that means a taser.

There are other symptoms to this disorder, but I won't bore you with them. What's important is that some of these people are said to die from excited delirium more often than from the taser gun.

Excited delirium is sometimes cited by some medical examiners as cause of death when a taser is used. However, there are some Forensic Pathologist who deny the existence of Excited delirium. A few have been fired from their job for that belief. It's interesting though, the disorder and the taser gun came on the scene almost simultaneously. Evil

Look it up! It's an interesting read.

Ms. Doodle: Hi thanks for

Ms. Doodle: Hi thanks for the encouragement, but I have seen that poor Polish immigrant get tazered at least 6 times on the news. Just imagine, being in a foreign country, not knowing the language, held up for 10 hours, no relative contacted (mom in Canada) Heartbreaking because he was her only child. The more I see the video, the more the RCMP look like a bunch of goons. There will never be enough justice in this country for the likes of them, they disgust me and they are supposed to be our finest, good grief!!!

Hi Spuddy..I think all Mr.

Hi Spuddy..I think all Mr. Mr. Dziekanski needed to calm him may have been just a Hug, from anyone!!! Not stomped on. It isn't just him, it could be any of us in any country. So inhumane!! Seeing the video, again and again, would have been more humane to be shot by a gun!! Sad

There is a big difference

There is a big difference between protecting oneself,and just being down right mean and violent. Many mean people,get the evil power of control over them, and they get violent. I have never ever seen a nice person,kill another. Its very sad. Evil = death.

Pam,I already signed that

Pam,I already signed that thing against them,but I don't think thats enough. They do need them in Canada,if cops aren't allowed to carry guns. But they CERTAINLY don't need them here. There are too many evil people that like to hurt others on purpose. The cops already carry guns,and alot of them shoot those without needed. Plus they have those long heavy flashlights,that they could knock someone in the head with. Plus the mace. So if one taser shot puts them to the ground,why would they have to keep tasering over and over?? Because they are evil. Violent people. Sad

G'mornin Doodle: "They do

G'mornin Doodle:

"They do need them in Canada,if cops aren't allowed to carry guns."

********************Some Canuck please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the case. I can't imagine a police force without guns. The officers just see the Taser as the weapon of choice, having the mistaken idea that it's not ultimately going to cause any permanent damage.

Pam

Daenerys said: "I can't

Daenerys said:

"I can't remember everything verbatim, but one police force (I *think* it was in NS)had every police officer tasered. According to the 'captain'(?), he wanted every member of the force to know what it felt like before doing it to someone else. Of course, the absolute presumption now, is that the taser is perfectly safe to use (as all police officers did it and bounced back 10 seconds later) on healthy individuals."

**************Maybe the difference is in how long the officer holds the triger down. I think one could get zapped for a fraction of a second, OR, like in the case the woman in the wheelchair, when the first officer zapped her about 9 times for a total of 160 seconds.........then the second applied an additional 10 seconds of electricity.
That's 2 minutes and 40 seconds. I did this: Set your timer for 2 minutes and 40 seconds and imagine what that person went through. I believe she was virtually electrocuted. We don't know yet how many seconds of electricity Mr. Dziekanski was subjected to, but I think many of these *taser* incidents translate into electrocution.

Pam

The video of Mr. Dziekanski

The video of Mr. Dziekanski reminded me of the Tom Hanks movie The Terminal

.....................until the police arrived.

Pam

Deaths from *tasers* = ??

Deaths from *tasers* = ?? 280 ?? Sure seems like someone needs to take a second look at the "safety" of tasers, making certain that the independent experts hold no interest in
Taser International.

Pam

Here's another good story:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/

I wonder if the difference

I wonder if the difference is in the seconds that the energy is applied??

I wonder if this is the story Daenerys referred to, although Daenerys story suggested the whole police force was *tasered*

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/11/16/ot-taser-071116.html

It's a wonder this kid

It's a wonder this kid wasn't killed;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

Another handcuffed woman,

Another handcuffed woman, and how to make her cooperate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWaCD6jIH5Q&feature=related

I have been reading

I have been reading everyone's comments about the incidents.....i also agree how sad it is when someone dies do to excessive force but I also can see in certain situations that many mistakes are made....The police, R.CM.P. i BELEIVE ARE ALSO IN FEAR, their adrelien is up, and times they probably had to use the device more than once because of different situations...with drugs, terrorists, family disputes that can cause not only a spouse to be arrested for family voilence but then the wife, husband, mom, dad, brother, sister, whoever to jump the police in attack because they called them, now they are mad because force has to be used in the arrest and the family don't like it, so they attack...it's kind of like your damed if you do or your damned if you don't...any death is tragic...and hopefully an investigation will cause any wrong doing to be solved....if we did live in a perfect world it would never happen...but....

a nurse in the hspt. was telling me a young girl on some kind of drug, was so violent and out of it, it took i forget how many to hold her down and strap her in, but it was more than 4, and she probably weighted 100 lbs....see if she had not been conrolled she was capable of killing or infact maiming many...so what to do....they could have used the thaser on her and she would not have responded...who knows...because they had to use force was the young girl bruised? probably from having to hold her, and from her thrashing around...could she say it was all their faults if she broke her arm or leg? police have been killed, injured, spit on, beaten, hit, egged on, etc... they are afraid....do they use excessive force at times...probably, but do they do it for the fun of it...maybe a few nuts, but mostly i don't think so...do they have a police club...maybe they hang out....but I don't see them in gangs beating up people just because.....do they fear for their lives and our lives....everyday.....how many of the public kill, maime, shoot, harm, abuse, drink and kill familys daily?? How many sell drugs, hang in gangs, use violence, beat, hurt young , old and their own with no concience?? how do we control the situations.....Do you think these men/women went out on this day and said...'let's just get this guy, give it too him until he is dead? Something did happen for sure, but I believe their is more too it..... I think an investigation is all that can be done for now until they find out what happened and who was at fault....then it can be dealt with.....look how many times a drunk driver can get a lawyer and get off, or a gang member who shoots and kills someone, gets off....nothing makes sence but without the police, where would we be? and who do we call if we have a nut at our door, or behind us at the bank, with a gun or knife...or how many are taken hostage?? so what do we do....say, hey bud, can you er, put down the knife/gun, i just don't feel like getting robbed or killed today??? don't bother calling the police, we will handle the situations? Do they always make the right decisions,no, BUT NEITHER DO WE...

How much training does it take to say while in trauma, hey, remember just hold that trigger for one quick shot!! Or remember, while the gun man has already shot 10 people, just hit him in the leg, he will stop!! do you think so?

Do unfortunate incidents happen, Yes....is it sad...very sad....But, hopefully every thing will go through proper channels and be corrected in the best way possible...should these weapons be used again...who is to say...

i know if i was being beaten or shot at or taken hostage, or my family, you can thaser the perp....and if one don't knock him to the ground, i think doing it again is ok....will god be the judge of the situation, probably, but I don't think he said, you just watch while they rape or kill your child or or or.....

Where do we draw the line, or say enough is enough.....and if a unfortunate accident happens like they do at home, or in cars daily, do we get rid of all vehicals??? no we make more laws, and better control until it does work, until it does get better.....

Can you see the police being called out, the hours previous, they just had a hostage call at the bank, and before that a drunken driver that killed a mom and her 3 kids, and now this call....they are tired, on guard, and things go wrong.....was it on purpose.....???

just my two bits.....but not every thing is what it seems.....should they be accountable if they have made a gross error...You betta yah....just like any hspt., nurse, or doctor......or laymen...the maimed, the people harmed deserve to be compensated.....if indeed they are found neglegent, causing harm or death, the person or familys should be compensated....

I just beleive it's not all cut and dryed like we may see or read....and any witness their might be, if their is 10, you will get 10 different accounts of the same incident...so, until it's investigated, who really knows.....

the news, and videios have ways of getting us going!!

just my thoughts...

sherry

You're South African Random?

You're South African Random?

heartthrob wrote:Deaths from

heartthrob wrote:

Deaths from *tasers* = ?? 280 ?? Sure seems like someone needs to take a second look at the "safety" of tasers, making certain that the independent experts hold no interest in
Taser International.

I totally agree Pam,and that's another one of those things,thats too big to fight. How does one fight,when something is so big,and out of control?? I can't. All I can do is pray for justice,since God is bigger than all of it. It surely is so very sad. Huge hugs Pam. P.S. The world is full of lack of God. Sad

Hi Sherry: Unfortunately

Hi Sherry:

Unfortunately there is a certain personality type that is attracted to becoming a police officer, because he craves power and has never had it. The badge gives him power.

"I don't see them in gangs beating up people just because....."
Oh Yeah?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_gFJJXLv28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAz_FwYfRMw

Pam,it happens more than

Pam,it happens more than people can know,just because its not on the news everyday. It goes back for along time.I still think it all starts at home. Sad http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts224.html Often times,they treat people like criminals,before even trying to find out if they are or not. Sad

http://www.intellnet.org/reso

http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/PoliceBrutality.html Please no offense to anyone here,but I do not refer to bad police officers as pigs,I refer to them as haters. Pigs are much nicer. Shocked

heartthrob

heartthrob wrote:

Unfortunately there is a certain personality type that is attracted to becoming a police officer, because he craves power and has never had it. The badge gives him power.

WHOA!

heartthrob wrote:I wonder if

heartthrob wrote:

I wonder if the difference is in the seconds that the energy is applied??

I wonder if this is the story Daenerys referred to, although Daenerys story suggested the whole police force was *tasered*

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/11/16/ot-taser-071116.html

Hi Pam. This story certainly has some familiar sounding names so it could be that the one trainer guy was also interviewed in the radio program.

I would think there has to be some kind of difference in the amount of times someone is 'shot' and the duration they are 'shot' for. What would happen to someone with a heart condition??

Rooney wrote:You're South

Rooney wrote:

You're South African Random?

Inquiring minds want to know... Smiling

"The average Canadian has no

"The average Canadian has no clue how truly fortunate they are in many ways" Well Random, we should not take our freedoms and good life style for granted. But we should set the example for the whole world to see. I want everyone in the world to say: "That is what they do in Canada, I want to do that, I want to be that, they are wonderful" Sometimes, when I see things like that tazer incident, I feel so badly for the person who died, because it was needless. No newcomer to this country should be greeted with a tazer, but only with a handshake and a hug, "It is good to have you here" Welcome!!! He was not an invader or a threat, but a new Canadian, omg, I have seen it all now, we have sunk to the depths of dispair, just like raw sewage....

Rooney wrote:You're South

Rooney wrote:

You're South African Random?

Daenerys wrote:

Inquiring minds want to know... Smiling

LOL Smiling

Who me ? – admit to being a Sarf Effrican ? (using his thickest Afrikaans accent)

That would be *far* too bold / revealing for an Internet forum Eye-wink

“I. AM. CANADIAN." (humming the jingle to the beer ad to himself) Evil

Random: Are you Dr.

Random: Are you Dr. H.......?

spuddywuddy wrote:Random:

spuddywuddy wrote:

Random: Are you Dr. H.......?

This is beginning to remind me of a game...Guess Who? Smiling

RandomThoughts wrote: Rooney

RandomThoughts wrote:
Rooney wrote:

You're South African Random?

Daenerys wrote:

Inquiring minds want to know... Smiling

LOL Smiling

Who me ? – admit to being a Sarf Effrican ? (using his thickest Afrikaans accent)

LOL That's okay. Now I just envision that actor from Blood Diamond. I love the accent.

Hi Daenery: "What

Hi Daenery:

"What would happen to someone with a heart condition??"

*****************I think police departments have blamed some deaths on "oops, he had a heart condition", as well as saying that it was a drug induced heart attack. Again it would seem impossible to claim that a heart attack was drug induced or taser induced.

One article states that 50,000 volts is much less than a person received when defibrillated. Most people could be defibrillated with 50,000 volts, but in an emergency situation time is of the essence. That patient doesn't have time to *try it* at 50,000 and then *try it* a little higher. The operator may have just one shot.

When a person has "elective cardioversion" for supraventricular arrhythmias, the defibrillator is syncronized with the ekg, so that the shock can never fall on the "absolute refractory period" which is the later half of the T wave, as that would cause R on T phenomenon/asystole. What happens if a person is "tased" and the 50,000 volts happens to be delivered during the cardiac cycle called "absolute refractory"??
Hhhhmmmmmm??

This article is very good, although numbers are off (LOW) and I notice it is from 2005, but it's still very thought provoking. This from Law.com:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1121763921063

The New York Times reported last year that Taser International's research on the gun's safety is "spotty and inconclusive. The company's primary safety studies on its most powerful weapon consist of shocks administered to one pig and five dogs." The suit described these and other Taser safety studies as "severely inadequate."

Pam

Pam

2. AHA guidelines for Adult

2. AHA guidelines for Adult Emergency Nursing Procedures

To terminate unstable supraventricular tachyarrhythmias.

If a patient with supraventricular tachycardia is hemodynamically unstable, or is refractory to antiarrhythmic medications, synchronized cardioversion is warranted (American Heart Association, 1987)

Devices that deliver synchronized countershocks have the ability to deliver energy on the QRS complex. Delivery of the energy at this point in the cardiac cycle decreases the energy requirements and the complications associated with electrical therapy (Lown, 1962). One major complication associated with countershock is delivery of energy on the T wave, which is the vulnerable phase of the cardiac cycle. If this occurs, inducement of ventricular fibrillation is possible. Delivery of energy on the QRS complex prior to the vulnerable period reduces the chance of inducing this deteriorating rhythm. During synchronized cardioversion, electrical current passes through and depolarizes the myocardium. This current flow allows the sinus node to resume its pacemaker function.

OK docs help me out here. How does a stun gun know where the QRS complex is??

Pam Walter

The Taser stun gun, which

The Taser stun gun, which looks like a pistol, uses compressed nitrogen to fire electrified barbs connected to the gun by insulated copper wires. Once the probes strike, the target is subjected to a 50,000-volt electric shock that lasts at least five seconds and -- in most cases, although not all -- proves incapacitating.

*************5 seconds would cover about 5 heartbeats, continuous energy delivery. That would cover 5 PQRST complexes and 5 absolute refractory periods. I hope that someone can help me to understand why this is only occasionally lethal.

*************One man was tased for 150 seconds. That's 2 1/2 minutes of shocking. That man died. In my mind he was electrocuted. I think he was already handcuffed.

I have participated in many, many many defibrillations and synchronized cardioversions, working in ICU/CCU for 20 years. We used anywhere from 50 volts to 300 volts or 400 volts at a max. I must be missing something.

Where are all the docs?? Help, I don't understand.

Pam

Pam,I certainly am not a

Pam,I certainly am not a doc,but I think it shocks the heart,and it stops ticking. Maybe not on everyone,but then again all hearts are different. I hate bully cops, I know I'm not suppose to hate anyone,or anything. But that is something that I can't help. I hate violence,and they can cause some mighty big damage to a person,and get away with it. There are many with power to destroy. And I'm not talking about the good cops either,its the evil ones I speak of. Those that torture others,should be tortured themselves. Just my honest opinion. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2007/210907_b_brutality.htm

heartthrob wrote: OK docs

heartthrob wrote:

OK docs help me out here. How does a stun gun know where the QRS complex is??

Pam Walter

Haven't been following the whole thread here, so sorry if I miss something.

Pam - the gun doesn't - its just a matter of bad luck. If the charge hits at just the "right" time, it can result in an unstable rythum

Its similar to children who get something called a commotio cordis. Essentially, if a child gets struck in the chest (very often in baseball) at just the wrong time in their cardiac rhythum, their heart can stop suddenly. Fortunately, most kids can be revived with no damage, but some aren't so lucky.

heartthrob wrote: I have

heartthrob wrote:

I have participated in many, many many defibrillations and synchronized cardioversions, working in ICU/CCU for 20 years. We used anywhere from 50 volts to 300 volts or 400 volts at a max. I must be missing something.

I haven't been at a resus in quite a while, but from what I remember, it's 50-400 JOULES that are used.

1 joule is equal to: 6.24 ×10(superscript 18) eV (electronvolts). How that converts to the "volts" we are accustomed to, I don't know. Perhaps someone else can help.

I can't find it right now,

I can't find it right now, but I will look for the comparison of Watt Seconds, Volts and Joules, Twain. Thanks for that.

Ironically a "new" incident just happened yesterday when a 20 year old man was killed by sheriffs office deputy with a stun gun in Frederick, Maryland

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/18/taser.death/

heartthrob wrote:G'mornin

heartthrob wrote:

G'mornin Doodle:

"They do need them in Canada,if cops aren't allowed to carry guns."

********************Some Canuck please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the case. I can't imagine a police force without guns. The officers just see the Taser as the weapon of choice, having the mistaken idea that it's not ultimately going to cause any permanent damage.

Pam

I thought someone had already answered this. Yes cops in Canada do carry guns.
Of course, as soon as I posted this, I saw that someone did answer. I thought that I read or saw on TV that even in England the police had started carrying guns. I can't imagine trying to arrest a bad guy with a gun when all you have is a flashlight!

I've been biting my tongue

I've been biting my tongue about this subject because my opinion may seem bias due to firsthand knowledge on the subject.
Pam: I hope you know I respect you. I have to disagree with your statement as to why people become officers. (Badge and power) Just like in every proffession, there are good and bad. That statement to me, is a huge assumption. Also, the tasers I've seen don't look like pistols.
________________________________________________
Canadian officers do carry guns. *Apparently a few years ago (I don't know if it's still like this) officers on PEI did not carry guns*

General opinion of officers, tasers ect varies greatly. The "general" population bases most of their opinions on what is related through the media. I wish people would understand that not all the facts are provided and in some instances, what is reported isn't even close to what happened.

I agree some officers don't deserve to have the badge, some I believe belong (and some are) in jail. But there are also many that DO care. The job isn't easy and the "people" (often behaving differently than usual based on the situation) are a bigger threat to the officers than officers are to them. A bigger problem is the Judicial System.

BTW, Officers are under constant scrutiny. I don't think anyone enjoys having to walk on egg shells all the time.

CL

Oops: Didn't realize correcting a typo shows the message as new again???

A really good viewpoint

heartthrob

heartthrob wrote:

Ironically a "new" incident just happened yesterday when a 20 year old man was killed by sheriffs office deputy with a stun gun in Frederick, Maryland

How sad Pam!!

Thanks Daenerys: That was a

Thanks Daenerys: That was a much longer clip than the first one we saw. I am sure that he had ventricular fibrillation from the taser. Although highly agitated before he was tased, he did not appear to be in any physical difficulty. The RCMP officers called "code red" minutes after the man was tased and stopped breathing. They made no attempt at resusitation. I'll bet that if he could have been hooked up to a monitor, it would have shown ventricular fibrillation------------->asystole. How horribly sad and unnecessary. There must be an alternative.

Pam

[quote=CanDoc - its just a

[quote=CanDoc

- its just a matter of bad luck.

I most certainly would say,its bad luck alright. Bad luck for the one doing the tasing.

heartthrob wrote: How

heartthrob wrote:

How horribly sad and unnecessary. There must be an alternative.

Pam

I still think tasers are a better alternative than guns. There needs to be more effective training with police officers. Those officers didn't hesitate to use the taser. They didn't attempt to do anything for the poor man. He may have died from the knee to his neck (no oxygen). Police are supposed to be trained to be patient in these situations.

Hi Daenerys, You said: "I

Hi Daenerys,

You said: "I still think tasers are a better alternative than guns."
***************and I would agree, *ideally*. Especially so if the taser users weren't under the false impression that they are using something *non-fatal*. Take the case of Mr. Dziekanski. Would the RCMP have used a gun on him?? I don't think so, but they apparently felt comfortable in using the taser on him. They have been led to believe that it is in every case non-fatal. I think at some point the police are going to have to give up tasers. There have just been too many deaths.

Pam

Hate to say this Pam,but its

Hate to say this Pam,but its probably gonna get worse before it gets better. Personally I think they should taser themselves. Or maybe someone should taser the maker of tasers. Shocked I bet they never been tasered!!

Awright, just for a grin and

Awright, just for a grin and to lighten up............this is REAL POLICE BRUTALITY -

http://www.biggeekdaddy.com/humorpages/Misc/lawnmowerDUI.html

ROLOL heartthrob. My

ROLOL heartthrob. My question...what dealership did he get that buggy? Looks like it has cruise control. I think I might want one. Sticking out tongue

Hi Naly, I think that mean

Hi Naly, I think that mean policeman was trying to tell him that his buggy wasn't street legal or something??

Hi heartthrob. I know. I

Hi heartthrob. I know. I was teasing. That spray was also uncalled for.

heartthrob wrote:Awright,

heartthrob wrote:

Awright, just for a grin and to lighten up............this is REAL POLICE BRUTALITY -

Oh my!! I'd be laying in that highway for weeks,trying to get ran over. Now that mace,worked nicely. And it didn't kill him!! Eye-wink

I'd be laying in that

I'd be laying in that highway for weeks,trying to get ran over
_________________
What do you mean doodle? I didn't see any reason for force in that situation. I do like the mace idea, but what if the guy had a firearm or knife and it WAS a violent situation?

Naly,forget the highway

Naly,forget the highway remark. I was just saying,the highway there,isn't very busy. As for the dude,he was drunk,and he had to pee. But he didn't follow the officers orders,so the officer had to make him listen. And as far as the dude goes,by the time he would have pulled a gun,or a knife,the officer could have shot him dead,being as slow as he was. Now it would have been different if the officer maced him,and then proceeded to beat the crap out of him,but that tells me the officer was not being brutal,just doing what they do. Sorry to confuse you. P.S. Or he was doing what they are suppose to be doing,I should say. Mace doesn't kill,tasers do.

Thanks Doodle. I honestly

Thanks Doodle. I honestly did not understand. With what I saw, the cop should have let the drunk person do his thing and then just gone and handcuffed him when he was finished. That was police brutality from what I could interpret.

He was breaking the law

He was breaking the law Naly,he couldn't just let him go. Well, if he was a really nice officer maybe.

I know. Handcuff him and

I know. Handcuff him and then take him away. Anyway, I'm winding down here for the day. Take care. Talk to you later.

Take care,have a great day.

Take care,have a great day. Smiling

Hi Naly...What I wonder is

Smiling Hi Naly...What I wonder is how many lives the Tasers have saved?????? and do the public think cars should be taken off the roads for how deaths a year due to manufactures faluts, or the fault of drives for undue care and attention when getting into a vehicle and useing the thing as a weapon????I don't know? But I do know a young fellow who was taking the coarse for a Axulitary R.C.M.P. AND they had to be tasered.....just to show the person how effective it could be.....someone on here said, it's not the machine it's self but who the user might be.....just some questions i wonder about....???

P.S. HOW are you doing with your pain? are you getting anywhere??????I hope so....Sherry S.

Hi Sherry!! All very good

Hi Sherry!! All very good questions I would say. I would most certainly say,it has alot to do with,who is doing the tasing!! And then,that tells me,it still all starts at home. http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/11/18/4666154-cp.html Have a great day Sherry. Huge hugs.

Why wouldn't two trained

Why wouldn't two trained police officers be able to subdue an irrational person (e.g. the unfortunate fellow at the airport) by throwing a NET over them?
Or would that solution be too low-tech in our modern world?

astraea wrote: by throwing a

astraea wrote:

by throwing a NET over them?
Or would that solution be too low-tech in our modern world?

That would be entirely too simple for them Astraea,not enough action,I suppose. Although a grand idea!! Did you see the link about the redneck dui,Pam posted?? My daughter came over this evening,and I showed it too her,and she laughed and said,I think that is suppose to be a joke mom,so I think Pam had me believing that!! LOL!! Can you tell,I don't get out much?? Oh well,what can I say,it is by choice, mostly. LOL!! Have a great night. Smiling

Shelley: Hi, I do not like

Shelley: Hi, I do not like tasers. I think that they could subdue a person with mace, would that not be kinder and get the job done?

Hi Astrea, there were 4

Hi Astrea, there were 4 (four) RCMP officers plus 2 security guards on the scene. The RCMP did the tasing, plus the knee, which appeared to be his full weight, on the neck. That is what makes it so awful, the tasing without what appeared even a "Hello", and the disregard for a human being. Shocked

spuddywuddy wrote:Shelley:

spuddywuddy wrote:

Shelley: Hi, I do not like tasers. I think that they could subdue a person with mace, would that not be kinder and get the job done?

Spud it's not that easy. When people are out of control, there's no rational. *Some* are not easy to subdue, yes this incident is tragic but didn't any of you notice just how many officers it took to cuff him even after the taser was used? How many do you think it would have taken otherwise?

I've seen many people not even react to the pepper spray, not a flinch! (same with taser actually)

There's alot of factors deciding how officers approach a situation also...remember, they are dispatched based on the info the complainant reported (usually not very accurate) then relayed by the dispatcher (who's tone or interpretation of the information may or may not influence the officer's understanding of the situation). So even before they arrive, they have a picture in their mind as to what they will be dealing with. Their job is to protect the public - that's all of us - I also think they have the right! to do everything to stay safe themselves.

It's like everything else, there's always at least 2 sides to every situation. (I'm not saying all is justified) Also, we don't hear so much about good outcomes that these officers deal with everyday - that stuff just doesn't make the news.

Hi CL, There is always the

Hi CL,

There is always the example of my friend's husband; an x-cop. He went on a domestic violence call and the crazy lady threw a bag of glass down on him. He is now paralyzed and spending his life in bed and a wheel chair. He has had so many surgeries just to try to keep him comfortable. Personally, I would not want to go get some crazies under control for the safety of the public. Sure, there are bad cops out there like everything else, but we can't generalize them either.

I work with two medical

I work with two medical examiners in my state. I can safely say I've seen what human beings can do to one another. I've watched this video several times because there was something I couldn't understand. Did anyone see this from the perspective of the police officers? In the video I saw, the victim was holding a chair in a threatening manner. At that time I didn't see an officer approach him, on the contrary, people were trying to talk to him. The fact that he couldn't speak English is irrelevant when it comes to the safety of the police and general public.

This took place in an airport; airports are usually on high-alert in view of what happened on 9/11. When I mention 9/11, I'm not talking about the three thousand, plus victims in the twin towers, but the people in those high jacked planes. Police in airports have to be more alert than those in the street. If you were the police officers and you saw a man, in a very public place, holding a chair in a threatening manner and yelling, what would you do?

I would throw a NET over

I would throw a NET over him...

astraea wrote:I would throw

astraea wrote:

I would throw a NET over him...

I really like the net idea. It could come shooting out of one of those special guns so you get a good aim and accuracy of hitting the target...and it has those heavy balls on the ends that wrap up. Smiling
...or is that from a movie? Would it not be possible?

I love the net idea. The

I love the net idea. The poor man was just confused and couldn't communicate. The report said *I think* that the man had been trapped in the airport for 10 hours. He was unarmed and hadn't harmed anyone, so why not try something simple like a net or pepper mace before the taser?? I think the woman who was standing there talking softly to him stood a better chance of safely deescalating situation than the security guards OR the RCMP. They didn't try anything before just applying the taser. It would seem that by now there should be some coroner's report out or other statement of findings by now. I will search for that.

* Have to go put the bird in the oven:~)

I hope everyone has a lovely holiday today.

CIAO,
Pam

astraea wrote:I would throw

astraea wrote:

I would throw a NET over him...

Although funny.... good luck lol. Sounds like you should RUN and don't look back Smiling

Thanks for posting LS. You are absolutely right. Unlike you, I don't want to reveal info about my career to back up my reasoning (people can assume what they want) but I've also seen (too much) of what people do to each other, how they behave etc... altought there's always going to be "dirty" *proffesionals*, it's not the majority and they shouldn't be treated as such.

I'm sure everyone would be in an uproar had this guy hurt a child, passenger etc... Everyone would once again be blaming the police...
why did it take so long for them to get there, why didn't they taser him, shoot him... cast a net lol.. (kidding)

You ALL KNOW this is how people would react had the situation gone that way... and it certainly had the potential!

heartthrob wrote:He was

heartthrob wrote:

He was unarmed and hadn't harmed anyone, so why not try something simple like a net or pepper mace before the taser?? I think the woman who was standing there talking softly to him stood a better chance of safely deescalating situation than the security guards OR the RCMP.
They didn't try anything before just applying the taser.
Pam

Sorry, don't mean to "butt heads" Pam,
I didn't at any point see the officers just walk in and taser the man. There are times where you can hear them speaking with him for many minutes prior to the incident and the comments of spectators can be heard.

To me, it seems your statement is contradictory. "He was unarmed" **** his maneuvering of the chair is considered armed. His demenour was threatening in nature******
"and hadn't harmed anyone" *****YET**** "I think the woman who was standing there talking softly to him stood a better chance of safely deescalating situation than the security guards OR the RCMP." **** Does this statement mean you believe there WAS a situation? One with the potential to escalate?

The only relevance of his language is that once again, people are making assumptions. We don't know what he was saying (yet). Perhaps it wasn't only his body language that was threatening.... perhaps he was also making verbal threats????

Just something to think about....

The net may alarm him more

The net may alarm him more and increase his adrenaline level substantially, making him more belligerent and possibly inducing an MI. How about a tranqilizing dart? - it can bring down a charging rhino.

what are you? A Mossad

what are you? A Mossad agent? (LOL)

Another Taser death in

Another Taser death in Canada...............NS this time, as reported in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/23/world/americas/23briefs-taser.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin

heartthrob wrote:Another

heartthrob wrote:

Another Taser death in Canada...............NS this time, as reported in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/23/world/americas/23briefs-taser.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin

here's the story:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/11/23/hyde-taser.html

Canada Probes Taser After

Doesn't surprise me,only

Doesn't surprise me,only gonna get worse before it gets better. Taser toppers. Evil

So maybe someone can tell

So maybe someone can tell me,why didn't they keep zapping this guy,until he was gone?? They zapped him only once,and then they stopped. And he said he could get up and run afterwards?? Why then in all the video's,they go down,after one zap,then why can't they subdue them,with one zap,it tells me,they are trying to kill them,a slow and agonizing death. The sadest of stories,was the older black man in Georgia. Well,they are all very sad. I showed my daughter that one,and we both sat and just cried. Sad Totally sadistic,it was. You could actually see the poor man taking his last breaths. Sad http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/11/16/ot-taser-071116.html?ref=rss I do understand why,they say they need them,I just don't understand the need to kill with them. Sad I think they should have more training in using them,if they must have them. But it doesn't really matter what I think,it won't change anything.

Msdoodle wrote: The

Msdoodle wrote:

The sadest of stories,was the older black man in Georgia.

Which one was that Doodle? Do you have that link?

Pam

Here Pam..

Here Pam.. http://www.leechvideo.com/video/view1779295.html Sad Pam,I was looking for the one that is over 20 minutes long. I don't think this is it.

Levi wrote: Police in

Levi wrote: Police in airports have to be more alert than those in the street. If you were the police officers and you saw a man, in a very public place, holding a chair in a threatening manner and yelling, what would you do?

» The gentleman had a stapler (small) in his hand when 4 officers tased him, not a chair. His hands were also up!! How alert were the police and the security guys when he roamed in a secure area for 10 hours? Puzzled

Here's an interesting link:

Here's an interesting link: A bunch of U.S. Cops is suing Taser: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jLQ5mYROE1aoqQl9uI8ljBSs6FZQD8T3FLL00

Dan..another man died in

Dan..another man died in hospital here in BC today...again, he was in his mid 30's. A couple days ago he was pepper sprayed, beat with a baton, and tased by the RCMP..is it tased or taserd...tasered..don't know. On the news he was face down and shirt bloody when taken away in an ambulance. Apparently he was quite agitated and making quite a rukus when the the RCMP was called. Pictures were taken by a member of the public. How many haven't come to light cause it is hush, hush, with no one around with a camera to report?? I think it was Twain that suggested using a dart that would down a Rhino. I think a taser is inhumane enough. (I hope that was a joke??)

Saphire wrote: I think it

Saphire wrote:

I think it was Twain that suggested using a dart that would down a Rhino. I think a taser is inhumane enough. (I hope that was a joke??)

The dose to bring down a rhino is a lot greater than that to bring down a panda. For a person it would probably be about the same dose as for a cheetah.

Thats sad,sad,sad,Saphire.

Thats sad,sad,sad,Saphire. Sad I agree,the taser is,bad,bad,bad. Taser poppers they are.. Reminds me of a song by Pink Floyd. This one.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNa551dR6Rc Shocked Only the evil ones though..

Check out this great blog

Check out this great blog site:

http://thegallopingbeaver.blogspot.com/2007/11/taser-international-is-outraged.html

*Excited Delirium* (diagnosis made up by the police and Taser International to defend their actions.

"Excited Delirium" is a law

"Excited Delirium" is a law enforcement construct. The only time the "condition" shows up is when someone dies in police custody. It is never used in other institutions such as hospitals and psychiatric care facilities. In fact, the "condition" does not exist in the eyes of the medical community. If it did it would show up in this publication as a mental disorder or this publication as medical disorder. Go ahead and look. You won't find it. In fact, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders would probably list it if there was any evidence to support its existence.

I don't believe that for a

I don't believe that for a minute Pam,its just a ploy,so they can get away with murder. Thing about it is,they wont. They may in their lifetime. But never for eternity. And as I said before,God knows,if it is an accident or not. I wouldn't and couldn't live with myself,knowing I killed someone intentionally. Especially in the brutal ways,people are tortured. Its so sad. Huge hugs Pam.

Deaths prompt calls for

Deaths prompt calls for taser moratorium

Amnesty International researchers are calling for a moratorium on taser guns after the deaths of 300 people who were shocked in the United States and Canada.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/27/2102791.htm?section=justin

Pam

Hi Pam,well good. I hope

Hi Pam,well good. I hope they do look into it,but they will probably pass,it over,and say they do need them. "[Tasers are] a good alternative to stop a potentially dangerous and violent situation." This statement here though,is what I don't understand,because in all the videos I didn't see any violence,except for the cops being violent!! Their just evil people. Huge hugs. P.S. Not all of them either,but its clear to see. Those that are. Sad

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com

How sad!!

How sad!! Sad

http://cbs4.com/local/taser.d

http://cbs4.com/local/taser.death.police.2.599523.html

I think this is going to be an every day occurance until something is done.

How sad!! I pray all the

How sad!! Sad I pray all the people that are dying knows God.

Twain wrote: How about a

Twain wrote:

How about a tranqilizing dart? - it can bring down a charging rhino.

Great point Twain. Why couldn't a tranquilizing dart accomplish the same ultimate end, without risk to the persons life. As has been shown, most of these are minor offenders, yes some on drugs, perhaps resisting arrest, but rarely a felon, and often already in handcuffs when tased.

I hope more of our posters here will log on and sign the petition.

Another one bites the dust:

Simple Justice:

Bad cop,no donut.

Msdoodle wrote: Bad cop,no

For more on this story, go

For more on this story, go to:
http://adventuresincardiology.com

heartthrob wrote: "The

heartthrob wrote:

"The problem is thus not necessarily the *taser* itself, but a valid appreciation and application of where in the escalating continuum of force it should be used, i.e. as a last resort before a gun."

***********I don't really agree with that Random. Police officers have been taught that taser guns, while certainly producing SOME pain, and immobilizing a violent person, will not cause death or other permanent injury, and so the police aren't all that reluctant to use them in any questionable situation. So, it seems to me that the police have been lulled into a false sense of safety in it's use.

Taser International set up an "independent" advisory board to approve the use of Taser guns by the police. Electrophysiologists Hugh Calkins of Johns Hopkins (Baltimore) and Richard Luceri or Jackson Memorial (Miami) advised that Taser guns were safe for use by the police, ie; would not cause cardiac deaths. These guys were no doubt hansomly compensated for this approval by Taser International:~)

Tasers and Guns don't kill people.

But they sure help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlx4n_ibNZE

Msdoodle wrote: Not only

Msdoodle wrote:

Not only is the person that invented tasers are responsible for 280 deaths,but the persons,that caused the deaths by tasers are killers!! I bet God not to happy about that!! Hello.. Maybe welcome to hell?? Only God knows. Thats just my opinion. I don't think God takes to lightly to murderers.

I think your logic may be "slightly" flawed here. Let's ask my colleague and see if he agrees with me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsxqQIu_5s&NR=1

chrisaldridge wrote: I

chrisaldridge wrote:

I think your logic may be "slightly" flawed here. Let's ask my colleague and see if he agrees with me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsxqQIu_5s&NR=1

Laughing out loud Reminds me of me after taking super B complex. That was funny,thank you for the laugh. Laughing out loud P.S. Have a great day. Laughing out loud

Yea,your right there!!

Yea,your right there!! People do. Mean mean people do. Shocked Sad
Hey,my views have changed about brutal police officers,they are needed. Just not by me. Shocked

Msdoodle

Msdoodle wrote:
chrisaldridge wrote:

I think your logic may be "slightly" flawed here. Let's ask my colleague and see if he agrees with me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsxqQIu_5s&NR=1

Laughing out loud Reminds me of me after taking super B complex. That was funny,thank you for the laugh. Laughing out loud P.S. Have a great day. Laughing out loud

I'm starting to think we are not such a good influence on Dr. Chris!!! Jawdropping!

chrisaldridge

chrisaldridge wrote:
Msdoodle wrote:

Not only is the person that invented tasers are responsible for 280 deaths,but the persons,that caused the deaths by tasers are killers!! I bet God not to happy about that!! Hello.. Maybe welcome to hell?? Only God knows. Thats just my opinion. I don't think God takes to lightly to murderers.

I think your logic may be "slightly" flawed here. Let's ask my colleague and see if he agrees with me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsxqQIu_5s&NR=1

ROLMAO...someone has been puffing the magic dragon too long

Don't discourage him!!! I

Don't discourage him!!! I never rarely see Chris's sense of humor come out!!

heartthrob wrote: Don't

heartthrob wrote:

Don't discourage him!!! I never rarely see Chris's sense of humor come out!!

I don't want to discourage him--just commenting. It's nice to see him joining in on the fun.

A link....

Not only did the police

Not only did the police taser an distraught immigrant, now they have used a taser on a mentally emotional 16 year-old mother, while she was holding her baby:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080926/national/mom_taser

Here's another tragedy: this one happened in the States: http://www.ktla.com/content_landing_page/?Distraught-Man-Falls-to-Death-After-Bein=1&blockID=69003&feedID=1080

abusedemotionally

abusedemotionally wrote:

Not only did the police taser an distraught immigrant, now they have used a taser on a mentally emotional 16 year-old mother, while she was holding her baby:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080926/national/mom_taser

Here's another tragedy: this one happened in the States: http://www.ktla.com/content_landing_page/?Distraught-Man-Falls-to-Death-After-Bein=1&blockID=69003&feedID=1080

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09252008/news/regionalnews/cops_in_nude_taser_slay_130670.htm

heartthrob

heartthrob wrote:
abusedemotionally wrote:

Not only did the police taser an distraught immigrant, now they have used a taser on a mentally emotional 16 year-old mother, while she was holding her baby:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080926/national/mom_taser

Here's another tragedy: this one happened in the States: http://www.ktla.com/content_landing_page/?Distraught-Man-Falls-to-Death-After-Bein=1&blockID=69003&feedID=1080

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09252008/news/regionalnews/cops_in_nude_taser_slay_130670.htm

I suppose police departments don't need crisis negotiators anymore. Now when someone threatens suicide, the taser gives them a helping hand. Disgusting!

In both cases I wonder what the officers were thinking. The mother was holding her child. That was okay, they said, because they hit her in the back. What happened to the baby while the mother was falling to the ground and lost control of her arms? The guy on the ledge never had a chance. I hope his family brings a wrongful death suit against the city.

On another note. Happy Anniversary Dan and Pam.

I think Taser International

I think Taser International has a lot of money these days; and $$ equals political influence?? How sad.

Thanks for the Happy wish Levi.

pam

heartthrob wrote: Here's

heartthrob wrote:

Here's another good story:

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/028314.php

That's outrageous!

Poor guy is going to have nightmares for the rest of his life.

The NYC police office who

The NYC police office who gave the order to tase the man on the fire escape, who then fell to his death..........that officer committed suicide yesterday. How very sad. He was a 21 year veteran of the NYC police department. I call it two taser deaths.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/nyregion/03taser.html?bl&ex=1223092800&en=9fa606ceef16e341&ei=5087%0A

Today, in the midst of the

Today, in the midst of the inquest into the death of Robert Dziekanski who was tasered by RCMP officers stationed at YVR, the force announced a change in policy regarding the use of Tasers.

Members of the force will no longer deploy the weapon to subdue individuals found to be "resistant", but will use the weapon only in situations where the lives of officers or members of the public are endangered. This reflects the use for which the force supposedly originally adopted use of the weapon.

Canadian Mounties admit abuses, to curb Taser use
http://uk.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUKN1229352420090212

Taser Incidents (RCMP)
2005: ~550
2007: 1414

Robert Dziekanski story and video:

http://mostlywater.org/right_away_they_tasered_him_civil_liberties_group_calls_for_banning_of_tasers_two_articles

I'm glad things have

I'm glad things have changed. Smiling Now,if only they could curb there use here. Puzzled I still think they would be better off using tasers in prison settings only. Shocked Puzzled P.S. Old thread here you found Mic. Laughing out loud P.S. just as with the other threads,some have edit buttons some don't. Sad

Yet another responsible and

Yet another responsible and professional cardiologist who is not on the take from TASER has refuted claims by TASER spokeman Hugh G. Calkins, MD of Johns Hopkins Medicine: Prestige for Sale

In spite of the RCMP

In spite of the RCMP announcing a new policy on the use of the Conducted Energy Weapon (Taser), the force appears to be defending Taser International's claim of "safety", quoting a recently released three year study conducted by a certain Dr. Bozeman:

"Dr. Bozeman released, just last month, the results of another three-year review of CEW uses by six U.S. law enforcement agencies. Out of 1,201 criminal suspects who were subdued by a CEW, 99.75 per cent suffered either no injuries at all or only mild injuries such as scrapes and bruises."

2009-02-12—Remarks for Commissioner Elliott Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security (SECU)

RCMP Quarterly Report On Conducted Energy Weapon Usage: 2008-01-01 to 2008-03-31

CEW Fact Sheet

I think there may have been three or four deaths in the 1,414 persons tasered in Canada by the RCMP alone (not counting provincial and municipal police forces), during 2007.

Perhaps "deceased persons" are not included in the total "subdued".

It is sadd ppl passing cause

It is sadd ppl passing cause of that gun.

MicOnTheNorthShore

MicOnTheNorthShore wrote:

Today, in the midst of the inquest into the death of Robert Dziekanski who was tasered by RCMP officers stationed at YVR, the force announced a change in policy regarding the use of Tasers.

Members of the force will no longer deploy the weapon to subdue individuals found to be "resistant", but will use the weapon only in situations where the lives of officers or members of the public are endangered. This reflects the use for which the force supposedly originally adopted use of the weapon.

Canadian Mounties admit abuses, to curb Taser use
http://uk.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUKN1229352420090212

Taser Incidents (RCMP)
2005: ~550
2007: 1414

Robert Dziekanski story and video:

http://mostlywater.org/right_away_they_tasered_him_civil_liberties_group_calls_for_banning_of_tasers_two_articles

Freaking out in an AIRPORT is generally a bad idea. Untoward things have been known to happen there. From what
I have read, I understand that this was his first time flying , so perhaps he was unaware of this fact. Or perhaps
he has mental health issues, or was on drugs. Or all of the above.

Looking at the youtube video, these officers obviously were extremely aggressive in restraining him. However,
I'm surprised nobody has commented on the fact that one of the cops was seen repeated striking the fallen suspect with
his NIGHTSTICK. Not his taser.

Shortly after this trauma, the victim loses consciousness.

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